Comments - Atheism - Architects of a New Dawn2024-03-28T18:31:43Zhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2227378%3ABlogPost%3A92602&xn_auth=noA quick after-though in reply…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-09:2227378:Comment:945602009-07-09T01:11:06.324ZRon Tocknellhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/RonTocknell
A quick after-though in reply to Mel's post:<br />
'Doing my bit for 2012 whether I realise it or not' is probably spot-on. I think that's always been the case. We 'do our bit' whether we realise it or not. I know that conscious understanding has served us well (but not without its problems) but I think we put far too much store in it.<br />
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I've heard many and varied ideas about what 2012 represents and I do sense this 'count-down' and perhaps a sense of urgency. Some theories may turn out to be right…
A quick after-though in reply to Mel's post:<br />
'Doing my bit for 2012 whether I realise it or not' is probably spot-on. I think that's always been the case. We 'do our bit' whether we realise it or not. I know that conscious understanding has served us well (but not without its problems) but I think we put far too much store in it.<br />
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I've heard many and varied ideas about what 2012 represents and I do sense this 'count-down' and perhaps a sense of urgency. Some theories may turn out to be right and some people may actually <i>know</i> by some means that certainly evades me. But I have no way of knowing and I can't prepare for it. But then, I've never prepared for anything in my life but that didn't stop it all happening anyway. That's the reassuring thing..<br />
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It happens anyway.<br />
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To me that's what Faith is. It's open and unconditional rather than attached to some idea or event.<br />
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I was once reading a book about Japanese archery... which is all very Zen. The teaching was that the archer does not <i>release</i> the bowstring; the archer must simply <i>allow</i> the bowstring to be released. It went on to explain this with the metaphor of a blossom falling from the tree: Does the blossom let go of the tree or does the tree let go of the blossom? The point it was making is that, by trying to <i>bring about</i> an event, we actually interfere with the process and get in the way. We need to learn to <i>allow</i> it to happen. Long, long ago, when the hipp…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-09:2227378:Comment:945532009-07-09T00:39:39.593ZRon Tocknellhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/RonTocknell
Long, long ago, when the hippies first emerged, I decided that, although I went along with a lot of the cultural philosophy, I didn't want to conform to an idiosyncratic ideology... so I became a beatnik instead.<br />
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We create these labels so we can band together under them and feel part of a community. I think, at best, this is well intentioned madness because all it does is create a sense of separation from the other labels. At worst, it creates enmity. I've been giving this some thought since I…
Long, long ago, when the hippies first emerged, I decided that, although I went along with a lot of the cultural philosophy, I didn't want to conform to an idiosyncratic ideology... so I became a beatnik instead.<br />
<br />
We create these labels so we can band together under them and feel part of a community. I think, at best, this is well intentioned madness because all it does is create a sense of separation from the other labels. At worst, it creates enmity. I've been giving this some thought since I started this post and having taken in the responses. Not believing in the traditional sense of God is hardly subscribing to a philosophy so why call it anything? Calling it 'atheism' or 'agnosticism' is giving it some kind of official label which serves only to set me up in opposition to those who <i>do</i> believe in the traditional sense of God.<br />
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I'm not opposed to them so why do I wear a badge that implies that I am.<br />
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From this day forward, I no longer call myself an atheist.<br />
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I toyed with the idea of calling myself an "I'm-not-going-to-call-myself-anythingist" but I think that might be clutching at straws. Time to stop clinging to the flotsam of an ideology and surrender to the ocean. I agree, avoidism is best...tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-08:2227378:Comment:945362009-07-08T23:11:43.763ZJeannehttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/Jeanne
I agree, avoidism is best...
I agree, avoidism is best... Mel, I thought I was pedantic…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-08:2227378:Comment:945342009-07-08T22:26:19.296ZRon Tocknellhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/RonTocknell
Mel, I thought I was pedantic but I think I've met my match. It's enough to drive <i>me</i> to drink! Is alcoholism a prerequisite for a recovering atheist? I don't know.<br />
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It doesn't really matter anyway. My description of myself as an atheist is not so much something to identify with as an indication of what I <i>don't</i> identify with. Maybe it's an inner yearning to be part of a community. Maybe I should dig out those old emails and get back to the Atheist Community. I can already hear them…
Mel, I thought I was pedantic but I think I've met my match. It's enough to drive <i>me</i> to drink! Is alcoholism a prerequisite for a recovering atheist? I don't know.<br />
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It doesn't really matter anyway. My description of myself as an atheist is not so much something to identify with as an indication of what I <i>don't</i> identify with. Maybe it's an inner yearning to be part of a community. Maybe I should dig out those old emails and get back to the Atheist Community. I can already hear them gloating "Hah! We knew you'd come crawling to us eventually". They'll probably make me do penance and send me out on an evangelistic mission to undo God's work. What do I say when I knock on doors? "Hello.... I bring bad news......"<br />
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Maybe agnosticism is the way to go..... or, better still, avoid '<i>isms</i>' altogether. 'THEM UPSTAIRS ' continually…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-08:2227378:Comment:944982009-07-08T18:43:32.780ZMelanie Wormanhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/MelanieWorman
'THEM UPSTAIRS ' continually remind us that our aim is to exist without fear, in a place of joy and laughter. After I'd got up from the floor, having fallen off my chair with screams of laughter upon reading your comments, I can now see that you're already doing your 'bit' in preparation for 2012 - whether you realise it or not.<br />
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I'm now re-categorising you from 'atheist friend' to 'agnostic friend' so does that mean your Blog becomes defunct? XXX
'THEM UPSTAIRS ' continually remind us that our aim is to exist without fear, in a place of joy and laughter. After I'd got up from the floor, having fallen off my chair with screams of laughter upon reading your comments, I can now see that you're already doing your 'bit' in preparation for 2012 - whether you realise it or not.<br />
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I'm now re-categorising you from 'atheist friend' to 'agnostic friend' so does that mean your Blog becomes defunct? XXX Hey! You spoilin' for a fight…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-08:2227378:Comment:937882009-07-08T02:20:37.649ZRon Tocknellhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/RonTocknell
Hey! You spoilin' for a fight? Did I say I want to challenge your belief system? Eh? <i>Did I</i>? Eh?<br />
As for God: Yep. That's exactly where I got this idea that God is an entity with an opinion about good and evil. Started in Sunday school. However, as I said... I don't actually believe that (remember the atheism thing?).<br />
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I don't really have any views about 2012 but I'll fall off that bridge when I come to it.<br />
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Now you're saying my higher self is <i>clumsy</i>, smashing mirrors and…
Hey! You spoilin' for a fight? Did I say I want to challenge your belief system? Eh? <i>Did I</i>? Eh?<br />
As for God: Yep. That's exactly where I got this idea that God is an entity with an opinion about good and evil. Started in Sunday school. However, as I said... I don't actually believe that (remember the atheism thing?).<br />
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I don't really have any views about 2012 but I'll fall off that bridge when I come to it.<br />
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Now you're saying my higher self is <i>clumsy</i>, smashing mirrors and stuff!<br />
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You're spoilin' for a fight. Go on, admit it. Y'know, you're lucky I'm a pacifist! Seeing and feeling the broken…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-08:2227378:Comment:937732009-07-08T00:57:56.665ZMelanie Wormanhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/MelanieWorman
Seeing and feeling the broken mirror isn't a gender thing, it's a Ron thing. Your mirror breaking was a gift of learning for you, Ron style. Can you see how your Higher Self set this up for you?<br />
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Right, a couple of points I have to challenge. Firstly, where did you get this idea that god is an entity with an opinion about good and evil, punishment and reward etc. These ideas of polarities were introduced by humankind (mankind to be more precise......sorry couldn't help myself) and helped to…
Seeing and feeling the broken mirror isn't a gender thing, it's a Ron thing. Your mirror breaking was a gift of learning for you, Ron style. Can you see how your Higher Self set this up for you?<br />
<br />
Right, a couple of points I have to challenge. Firstly, where did you get this idea that god is an entity with an opinion about good and evil, punishment and reward etc. These ideas of polarities were introduced by humankind (mankind to be more precise......sorry couldn't help myself) and helped to obscure the true messages that lie at the core of every religion. And of course these ideas were introduced as a form of oppression and control. Like Jeanne, I was drawn to Buddhism, firstly because it's more a philosophy than a religion and secondly because it has been less interfered with down the ages.<br />
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Throughout the many channelings I've participated in, it's always been made clear to us that polarities only exist in the 3rd Dimension (here) and that when the shift in consciousness occurs in 2012, we shall shift into another dimension which does not contain polarities.<br />
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Secondly, I have a belief system but it most certainly is not fixed. It constantly evolves with me as I evolve on my path. I don't need to defend my belief system but if you care to challenge me I'm happy to play along! I thought I'd finished but, o…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-07:2227378:Comment:937282009-07-07T22:38:31.257ZRon Tocknellhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/RonTocknell
I thought I'd finished but, obviously, I hadn't (that's another belief out the window).<br />
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I'd been struggling with this concept of Oneness. I'm aware of myself as an individual and I know that I am one of many individuals who, in turn, are part of the many life-forms of our planet, which, in turn..... need I go on? I think not. You get the picture.<br />
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I also sensed that we are all connected but I couldn't get a grasp on how.<br />
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Now a broken mirror might mean 7 years bad luck to some but, to me, it…
I thought I'd finished but, obviously, I hadn't (that's another belief out the window).<br />
<br />
I'd been struggling with this concept of Oneness. I'm aware of myself as an individual and I know that I am one of many individuals who, in turn, are part of the many life-forms of our planet, which, in turn..... need I go on? I think not. You get the picture.<br />
<br />
I also sensed that we are all connected but I couldn't get a grasp on how.<br />
<br />
Now a broken mirror might mean 7 years bad luck to some but, to me, it was an 'AHAH!' moment. Picking up the pieces, it occurred to me that a mirror is holographic. Each piece reflects everything that the 'whole' mirror did.<br />
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More to the point, each piece behaves as if <i>the mirror was never broken in the first place</i>. I realised that the <i>mirror</i> cannot be broken. Only the glass can be broken but the very quality that makes it a mirror is indivisible.<br />
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I'd considered the drops-in-the-ocean concept and the Light-that-is-one-though-the-lamps-be-many which kind of acted as useful metaphors on a poetic level but didn't help in the understanding. Light diminishes as lamps are extinguished and, theoretically, at least, even the ocean could be drained drop-by-drop.<br />
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A mirror's reflection doesn't reduce as bits are broken off and every bit can reflect the whole (albeit with a bit of waggling about).<br />
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<i>That's</i> it. We are the pieces of the mirror that was never separated in the first place.<br />
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It took me a while. I told you I was bloody pedantic... I can split hairs on a gnat's arse with my eyes closed. But I got there in the end. Maybe it's a gender thing but I had to be able to <i>see</i> it to feel it. Mel: I wouldn't deny that the…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-07:2227378:Comment:937172009-07-07T21:49:09.670ZRon Tocknellhttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/RonTocknell
Mel: I wouldn't deny that there's a greater power than myself (in fact, I married her) and possibly a power greater even than Anne. Joking aside, all I know is that there is more than I can ever know. I gave it some very serious thought and decided against blazing a trail around the globe in search of a recovering alcoholic atheist just so I could say: "See? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!! HA! HA!". I know it's a small step but, for a man... and <i>me</i> in particular, that's progress. I would agree that…
Mel: I wouldn't deny that there's a greater power than myself (in fact, I married her) and possibly a power greater even than Anne. Joking aside, all I know is that there is more than I can ever know. I gave it some very serious thought and decided against blazing a trail around the globe in search of a recovering alcoholic atheist just so I could say: "See? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!! HA! HA!". I know it's a small step but, for a man... and <i>me</i> in particular, that's progress. I would agree that to be able to let go of any addiction one has to see that there is something greater. Perhaps discovering that is not so much a part of the process of recovery as recovery is part of the process of finding your centre within the Whole (notice the way I cunningly avoided saying "God". We of the atheist community are good at that).<br />
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Jeanne: I don't feel as though I'm on the fence about the existence of a God (and by a "God", I mean an entity with an opinion about good and evil, who punishes and rewards and so on). I'm quite clear in my mind and heart that such an entity does not exist. I won't argue the point with those who are clear in their minds and hearts that such a God <i>does</i> exist because it would serve no purpose. What we feel in our hearts isn't the result of a conscious decision but an instinctive sense of what seems to us to be the truth. That we are true to the Truth that lies in our hearts is more important than what that Truth may be. Essentially, that's of no more importance that the ongoing argument between the 'Big Enders' and the "Little Enders' in Gulliver's Travels.<br />
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We might just be getting caught up in semantics here as I suggested to Mel earlier. Of course there are things I believe but what I mean by a 'belief system' is the kind of simplified explanation with which we tend to define the vast complexity of everything. The doctrines and the theologies. They strike me as a form of convenient packaging to contain the uncontainable so we can at least tell ourselves that we understand. My <i>beliefs</i> are transient. I'm not attached to them so I continually amend and adjust these beliefs according new concepts that I had not previously considered. <i>Belief systems</i>, on the other hand are fixed and those who hold them tend to have too much invested in them to allow them to be challenged. They have to be defended. Beliefs in the true sense do not have to be defended. If something shakes a hitherto held belief, we can examine and question our beliefs and, if it so happens, change them.<br />
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I don't have any beliefs that I'm not prepared to challenge myself because I'm all too aware of my capacity for being wrong.<br />
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I got it totally wrong about Jim Carey being the next President:o) I thought that folks who are…tag:architectsofanewdawn.ning.com,2009-07-07:2227378:Comment:936922009-07-07T16:41:54.235ZJeannehttps://architectsofanewdawn.ning.com/profile/Jeanne
I thought that folks who are on the fence about existence of a god are called agnostics. ...and I'll bet that you, Ron, do have a "belief system." ...though not a traditional mainstream dogmatic system. You apparently value honesty, compassion and truth seeking... and, no doubt, a longer list of values you "believe" to be of value to humanity's evolution.<br />
Never been the 12 step route, but know many who have... I believe that the acknowledgement of a "power greater than self" might seem like a…
I thought that folks who are on the fence about existence of a god are called agnostics. ...and I'll bet that you, Ron, do have a "belief system." ...though not a traditional mainstream dogmatic system. You apparently value honesty, compassion and truth seeking... and, no doubt, a longer list of values you "believe" to be of value to humanity's evolution.<br />
Never been the 12 step route, but know many who have... I believe that the acknowledgement of a "power greater than self" might seem like a "separateness", but is actually a "togetherness". We are part of that wholeness... inseparable, yet distinct and individual. Like a cell in my body is part of the body... yet distinctly unique from other cells.<br />
I believe we are part of the body of god... therefore we are god. I found my belief niche fits well in Buddhism... and so I have adopted much of it... and much of indigenous systems that look to nature to understand the meaning of life.<br />
I am so with you on the matter of "vilifying or persecution of anyone because of their belief." ...yet, that has been a point of contention since time immemoriaI. Its as if some feel that their righteousness must be approved by all or they are not in good stead.<br />
Great subject Ron... one that will spark debate until "kingdom come"... whatever that means.