What about Suffering?

[Thomas]

Here is my Question and I`m longing for answers, thoughts and insights from your different perspectives & spiritual backgrounds, dear Brothers & Sisters:

What about all the suffering and pain that people must experience in this world - like accidents, illness through no fault of ones own, War, Murder, absurd tragedies?
What about the Shoah/Holocaust and all the daily victims of structural Violence?

Its easy to sing "Hallelujah", when everything is fine, to praise the goodness of Life when I'm on the "sunny Side of the Street" (most of us in USA and Western Europe) and can enjoy the Beauty of Nature, to believe in the goodness of Men when I'm not to much a Victim of the dark Side of Men ... But what to say the parents, when they lost theit child? How to deal with someone who cannot bear his physical pain any longer? What to do in the Middle of Hell-Experience??

I ask you you this as a protestant Pastor, who has to deal with it again and again.
I have my confessional Ways to deal with the Problem of THEODIZEE and I try to deal with this problem in the way, that sometimes I have no answers and believe in a God, who suffers with us (my look at the Cross), limited himself (= lots is in our Responsibility!) and works through the Spirit of Forgiveness, inner Healing and Reconciliation ...
And sometimes I think Life & Believe are a "Nevertheless" in the Way of Camus` "The Plague" ... and a Bob Dylan "Never Ending Tour" as an unsatisfied Soul is nearer to me than spiritual Bright-shining- Vibes ...

I'm very interessted in your Views (please excuse my unperfect writing as a Posting from Germany)

be blessed
Thomas

[Jeanne]

James Murff said: I have studied the many teachings of Buddha, and his life. So I know the history, the feeling one gets, sitting in that relaxed state. ...What do we do if we sit by someone elses rules and let living pass us by?

Buddha was not a Buddhist. He did not read about Buddhism. He discovered the nature of reality through direct experience. We cannot experience that subtle level while engaged in day to day survival... at least not until we are fully enlightened. ...and then we don't need to.

Sitting... meditating is not by "someone elses rules", unless you consider the natural laws of the universe to be rules.

"I have studied ... So I know the... the feeling one gets,"

I think you would agree that studying anatomy and physiology and reading about the very subjective human experience known as the orgasm, would not be the same as the direct experience.

[Jeanne]

You could have knocked me over with a feather... when you called bioregional animism, "strange ass hippy stuff." Almost all cultures have had a 'place'. ...you've heard the term displaced people... it's more than a socioeconomic term. It has to do with belonging to a people, a place, a community. Similarly, we know that when we clear cut a forest we are not just chopping down trees, we are destroying an ecosystem. Humans are or were a part of an ecosystem, as surely as the worms, the butterflies, the fish, the fox and all other species.

[Lance Michael Foster]

Jeanne, I get the feeling James is a city guy, so he probably doesn't get the "nature thing"...the nature thing is WAAYY outside the mode-of-thinking box that James seems to be trapped within and is WAYYYYYYYYY older than any leftwing-rightwing thing

"Bioregional animism" by any name is as old as indigenous peoples and much older than hippies, or even the U.S. for that matter. The hippies basically were cobbling together their own western interpretations of indigenous (Native American etc) and eastern (Hindu, Buddhist, etc) philosophies. It's just a matter of fitting into the natural systems of one's area, and knowing that nature is as alive and able to respond and communicate as we are. Peace, man LOL



Jeanne said:

You could have knocked me over with a feather... when you called bioregional animism, "strange ass hippy stuff." Almost all cultures have had a 'place'. ...you've heard the term displaced people... it's more than a socioeconomic term. It has to do with belonging to a people, a place, a community. Similarly, we know that when we clear cut a forest we are not just chopping down trees, we are destroying an ecosystem. Humans are or were a part of an ecosystem, as surely as the worms, the butterflies, the fish, the fox and all other species.

[James Murff]

"I take it you didn't like that site. To each their own. Actually bioregional animism has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism. Lots of bioregional animists up in this area are gun-toting, meat-eating survivalists, not liberal hippies, or strange ass hippy stuff" as you put it. I myself was brought up with guns and hunting, eating meat I kill. Too bad you don't think you walk with nature, because you can't get away from it. You are part of nature, so it's good to accept it.

I think left wing and right wing, when taken to their extremes, are both as intolerant as they accuse the other of being. However, in their classic definitions (not the ridiculous ideological extremist forms each has taken since the time of Nixon to the present) conservatism and liberalism each have valuable parts of the story and are not necessarily antagonistic."

I stand corrected. Touche'. I am an urbanite, but I can walk in nature, and feel at home. I just don't feel the need to be a part of a group to do it. Does that make sense? I also believe in agriculture, as long as it's done humanely. I will go back to that web page. I just didn't give it a good look. I apologize. That was hard to swallow, GULP... I would be at home kind of like "I Am Legend," if that makes any sense. Give me a group of buildings to live and scavenge through, a couple of fire arms, knives, to use for hunting. And the tribe could be enough to keep the gene pool viable. But I would want to explore more than just the Earth. I believe that is another of my problems. I have been disheartened by seeing the "evolved sense of reasoning" on tv, and I want to see it here. I have no problem with different cultures doing what they do, and I think that each culture has to leave itself be. Someone is Jewish, I am not. Why is that a problem? Someone else is Muslim, I am not. I don't care. If I can live next to you, and we can be neighbors, then let's do that. I am rambling now.

But I do apologize for my misdirected hostility torwards you Lance Michael Foster. I am just tired of the hippy ideal of "Everything is peace and understanding." What if someone invades your house, then what would you do? Stand there and let them take your belongings, and hurt your family? Am I making any sense here?

Yes I am a suburbian man. I love having my apartment, my life with all of my nice furniture that I worked my ass off to purchase. My guitars, etc... I see nothing wrong with the survival ticket system. It has been making people more greedy than usual, lately, but it works. One butt hole always tries to ruin it for the whole bunch though.

[Sylvia]

Hi Thomas,
I rised up with the protestant education. Many years I have had to suffer pain of wrong education, envie and many health problems. Later I learned, Karma is the reason why all such things happen. Then I've had many hours of reincarnation therapie and found out: well, karma may be right. But where will we stop.
I meditated with my god and Jesus and received so much love that I had to cry and I understood:
I have to do things well and with love, that meens: I treat people such kind as I like to be treated.
Wow, that was the effect I needed. since many years Y don't have to suffer any more.

I can tell you because of my own experiences: People suffer only, because there are some experiences left, they have caused once. Not important if this or a former life experiences. But if they have a reconciliation with the divine, they can start at zero with love. Their live will change absulutely, even if there are any illness left, suffering is so much less that it is not worth to talk about.

Love is the key. I hope that helps.

I am organisating an international love event called BIG HUG on May 1st, 2012. I invite you to be part of it.
Please visit my profile.

with unconditinal love
Sylvia Klaere

[Lance Michael Foster]

no problem, James. Everybody is all stressed out these days. We all need to give each other a break to get through the mess :-)

Lance

James Murff said:

"I take it you didn't like that site. To each their own. Actually bioregional animism has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism. Lots of bioregional animists up in this area are gun-toting, meat-eating survivalists, not liberal hippies, or strange ass hippy stuff" as you put it. I myself was brought up with guns and hunting, eating meat I kill. Too bad you don't think you walk with nature, because you can't get away from it. You are part of nature, so it's good to accept it.

I think left wing and right wing, when taken to their extremes, are both as intolerant as they accuse the other of being. However, in their classic definitions (not the ridiculous ideological extremist forms each has taken since the time of Nixon to the present) conservatism and liberalism each have valuable parts of the story and are not necessarily antagonistic."

I stand corrected. Touche'. I am an urbanite, but I can walk in nature, and feel at home. I just don't feel the need to be a part of a group to do it. Does that make sense? I also believe in agriculture, as long as it's done humanely. I will go back to that web page. I just didn't give it a good look. I apologize. That was hard to swallow, GULP... I would be at home kind of like "I Am Legend," if that makes any sense. Give me a group of buildings to live and scavenge through, a couple of fire arms, knives, to use for hunting. And the tribe could be enough to keep the gene pool viable. But I would want to explore more than just the Earth. I believe that is another of my problems. I have been disheartened by seeing the "evolved sense of reasoning" on tv, and I want to see it here. I have no problem with different cultures doing what they do, and I think that each culture has to leave itself be. Someone is Jewish, I am not. Why is that a problem? Someone else is Muslim, I am not. I don't care. If I can live next to you, and we can be neighbors, then let's do that. I am rambling now.

But I do apologize for my misdirected hostility torwards you Lance Michael Foster. I am just tired of the hippy ideal of "Everything is peace and understanding." What if someone invades your house, then what would you do? Stand there and let them take your belongings, and hurt your family? Am I making any sense here?

Yes I am a suburbian man. I love having my apartment, my life with all of my nice furniture that I worked my ass off to purchase. My guitars, etc... I see nothing wrong with the survival ticket system. It has been making people more greedy than usual, lately, but it works. One butt hole always tries to ruin it for the whole bunch though.

[Steven Cox]

ACIM has an answer for this. But, it is obscure to the point of being difficult. The Course says there is a real world, but we don't see it. We see a world of pain, but this world is our distortion of the real world. Jesus says something that can be taken in a somewhat similar manner. He says to first seek the kingdom of heaven within, and furthermore he says this kingdom is imminent spatially. It is in front of us. Hindus have the concept of Maya, which says what we see is an illusion. There might be something to this, but it is difficult to live fully.

On a practical level, which is the level I deal with this...I have an alternative health practice...most suffering isn't substantial. Most suffering is some slight discomfort during a necessary change accompanied with a huge overreaction to it. The pain is in the resistance to the suffering, not the event itself. Helping a person to understand this takes them past the suffering. I have seen a couple of thousand people in my practice and I have heard pretty much every painful story one can hear in North America. I'm sure there are other types one can hear if you lived in Darfur. But, what I have never heard is anyone saying, once the situation is fully resolved, that they have actually been diminished. With the exception of having lost a child.

I believe, for what this is worth, Life/God/the Universe, whatever you want to call it, never takes anything from us that is truly beneficial. All we ever lose is a burden that was holding us back in some way. What is difficult is we have a view of ourselves that is largely incorrect, and often the changes don't fit with our view of how our lives should be. The actual change is a relief, but this is often not felt until later. Sometimes, much later. Life/God, etc. though isn't interested in making us good middle-class married taxpayers. Our purpose is to learn to Love, and to learn who we truly are, and then to contribute our unique self in a way that is most helpful to ourselves and others. Sometimes moving to that point that means you get dumped by your boyfriend, or you lose your job, or your house even. And, this engenders lots of pain. But, the pain isn't necessary, and will soon be seen to be unnecessary.

S

[James Murff]

But what about the other side of the coin? What if there is no coin to actually grip hold of, to speak our words of faith to? I am not a believer in Christianity, or any other Dogma. I understand where you are coming from. You need religion to live life by, but what of those who don't want any controlling factor such as the Ten Commandments, or the words of another man's idea on how we should live? Being out in the void away from religion is a very lonely, chaotic, confused filtering of the world, but it teaches you how to read people, and their actions, how to be yourself. What is your opinion on these circumstances? Just curious.

Steven Cox said:

ACIM has an answer for this. But, it is obscure to the point of being difficult. The Course says there is a real world, but we don't see it. We see a world of pain, but this world is our distortion of the real world. Jesus says something that can be taken in a somewhat similar manner. He says to first seek the kingdom of heaven within, and furthermore he says this kingdom is imminent spatially. It is in front of us. Hindus have the concept of Maya, which says what we see is an illusion. There might be something to this, but it is difficult to live fully.

On a practical level, which is the level I deal with this...I have an alternative health practice...most suffering isn't substantial. Most suffering is some slight discomfort during a necessary change accompanied with a huge overreaction to it. The pain is in the resistance to the suffering, not the event itself. Helping a person to understand this takes them past the suffering. I have seen a couple of thousand people in my practice and I have heard pretty much every painful story one can hear in North America. I'm sure there are other types one can hear if you lived in Darfur. But, what I have never heard is anyone saying, once the situation is fully resolved, that they have actually been diminished. With the exception of having lost a child.

I believe, for what this is worth, Life/God/the Universe, whatever you want to call it, never takes anything from us that is truly beneficial. All we ever lose is a burden that was holding us back in some way. What is difficult is we have a view of ourselves that is largely incorrect, and often the changes don't fit with our view of how our lives should be. The actual change is a relief, but this is often not felt until later. Sometimes, much later. Life/God, etc. though isn't interested in making us good middle-class married taxpayers. Our purpose is to learn to Love, and to learn who we truly are, and then to contribute our unique self in a way that is most helpful to ourselves and others. Sometimes moving to that point that means you get dumped by your boyfriend, or you lose your job, or your house even. And, this engenders lots of pain. But, the pain isn't necessary, and will soon be seen to be unnecessary.

S

[Lance Michael Foster]

There are a couple of ways to go.

If you need a system compatible with our psychology, the Greek philosophers had some guidelines. A good introduction is "The Ten Golden Rules" by Soupios and Mourdoukoutas. In brief:

1. Examine Life
2. Worry only about the things you can control
3. Treasure friendship
4. Experience true pleasure
5. Master yourself
6. Avoid excess
7. Be a responsible human being
8. Don't be a prosperous fool
9. Don't do evil to other people
10. Kindness toward others tends to be rewarded

That's one way to go, based solely on ethics, without religion.

The other way to go is the Golden Rule, "Treat others the way you want to be treated," with its corollary, "Treat others the way they want to be treated."

Anthropology calls this the principle of reciprocity. Indigenous people see that as applying not only to other human beings, but nature (animals, plants, etc.) as well.

[James Murff]

I have to say that is about as close to my heart as any "guidelines." I am very peculiar when it comes to other people's ideas of what god should be or any other god for that matter. I would like to know what opages you go to, kind sir. You just might be another human that I can actually relate to on here.

Lance Michael Foster said:

There are a couple of ways to go.

If you need a system compatible with our psychology, the Greek philosophers had some guidelines. A good introduction is "The Ten Golden Rules" by Soupios and Mourdoukoutas. In brief:

1. Examine Life
2. Worry only about the things you can control
3. Treasure friendship
4. Experience true pleasure
5. Master yourself
6. Avoid excess
7. Be a responsible human being
8. Don't be a prosperous fool
9. Don't do evil to other people
10. Kindness toward others tends to be rewarded

That's one way to go, based solely on ethics, without religion.

The other way to go is the Golden Rule, "Treat others the way you want to be treated," with its corollary, "Treat others the way they want to be treated."

Anthropology calls this the principle of reciprocity. Indigenous people see that as applying not only to other human beings, but nature (animals, plants, etc.) as well.

[Jeanne]

"...another human that I can actually relate to on here."

I hear you James... Lance is a treasure.

[Lance Michael Foster]

Back atcha Jeanne: "A beautiful woman is a jewel...a good woman is a treasure" :-)