What about Suffering?

[Thomas]

Here is my Question and I`m longing for answers, thoughts and insights from your different perspectives & spiritual backgrounds, dear Brothers & Sisters:

What about all the suffering and pain that people must experience in this world - like accidents, illness through no fault of ones own, War, Murder, absurd tragedies?
What about the Shoah/Holocaust and all the daily victims of structural Violence?

Its easy to sing "Hallelujah", when everything is fine, to praise the goodness of Life when I'm on the "sunny Side of the Street" (most of us in USA and Western Europe) and can enjoy the Beauty of Nature, to believe in the goodness of Men when I'm not to much a Victim of the dark Side of Men ... But what to say the parents, when they lost theit child? How to deal with someone who cannot bear his physical pain any longer? What to do in the Middle of Hell-Experience??

I ask you you this as a protestant Pastor, who has to deal with it again and again.
I have my confessional Ways to deal with the Problem of THEODIZEE and I try to deal with this problem in the way, that sometimes I have no answers and believe in a God, who suffers with us (my look at the Cross), limited himself (= lots is in our Responsibility!) and works through the Spirit of Forgiveness, inner Healing and Reconciliation ...
And sometimes I think Life & Believe are a "Nevertheless" in the Way of Camus` "The Plague" ... and a Bob Dylan "Never Ending Tour" as an unsatisfied Soul is nearer to me than spiritual Bright-shining- Vibes ...

I'm very interessted in your Views (please excuse my unperfect writing as a Posting from Germany)

be blessed
Thomas

[LightEye]

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

The 1st "question" is this...

How do we know that they who "suffer" regardless of the reasons are not "showing" us who do not "suffer" that which "suffering" is?

For if you do not know what "suffering" is how will you ever know what "suffering" isn't...?

The 2nd "question" is this...

Have those who wish to show us their "suffering" regardless of reason done this so that we who do not "know" what "suffering" is will realise and understand in some way how it affects us?

The 3rd "question" is simple...

Do we understand what is being said regardless of the medium?

And the 4th question...

"Do We Care?"

Simple questions - Hard answers...

Be Well My Friends.

[LightEye]

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

The 1st "question" is this...

How do we know that they who "suffer" regardless of the reasons are not "showing" us who do not "suffer" that which "suffering" is?

For if you do not know what "suffering" is how will you ever know what "suffering" isn't...?

The 2nd "question" is this...

Have those who wish to show us their "suffering" regardless of reason done this so that we who do not "know" what "suffering" is will realise and understand in some way how it affects us?

The 3rd "question" is simple...

Do we understand what is being said regardless of the medium?

And the 4th question...

"Do We Care?"

Simple questions - Hard answers...

Be Well My Friends.

Tell Me Why

[Lorie Renker]

I believe suffering is a blessing in many ways. I knew of a little boy named Mattie, he had a rare form of MS and was in a wheel chair much of his short 14 year life. He wrote a book with Jimmy Carter and touched millions with his sharing of his heart song of love with everyone. He never deserved to be ill, it was not karma he was a child, innocent and full of love. To me he was a selfless tool of the love of God, a child shall lead them, and a few other example of SELFLESSNESS.
It, life is not about a person, it is that we are all of the one, good, bad, different, we are all learning and growing. How ever you want to name it. We are not here to understand everything. I do not understand the reasons for all the health issues and chronic severe pain I have. I can tell you I am sure with my whole heart, I am here to share Joy, Love, Comfort, Food, Shelter. Walk in love, Live is a gift, in ANY form if you make it so, as Mattie did. "I am not afraid of Death, but I am afraid of dieing." I agree with this quote of Mattie's. Pain is real, I know, it never leaves me. It is not who I am though it is a part of the me in this form. So I try to find joy in each day, and do what I can to be a positive. My health issues will always be there. I choose to do what happens next. I choose to try to honor God with the life I have..God, Blessed be He, Bless all of you on each of your own journey's with love & Joy! Always, Lorie

[LightEye]

Hi Lorie.

You wrote this;

"I believe suffering is a blessing in many ways."

Suffering is not a "blessing" in any way. Suffering is simply a way of "expressing" of "that which is and that which isn't."

As I've written One needs to know what something is to know what something isn't.

It's a very hard concept for most to conceive as they need to cast away that which they've been "programmed/raised" to believe.

You can "see" suffering on the tele or hear it on the radio, but do you "really know" (feel) what suffering is?

And most continue to see "suffering" from the vantage point of "being out of range..."


They "forget" that We Are One..."

[AkashicWreckage]

Richard wrote: "We must always be willing to be a sounding board no matter what, I will say this, mostly what I am refering to involves woman and the numbers are stagering at just how many woman are attacked in all age groups on this ugly subject all because men cannot use simple self control and use a variety of excuses for their actions, all wrong answers in my own opinion! We need to always show our hearts opened wide, show compassion an understanding, sometimes these wounds never heal, there is NO letting these feelings of terror go for many woman today, a sound, a smell, an object are only a few things that will bring these terrors back into view causing the individual to relive many of these otrosities to which they suffer as they sleep or try to carry on in their own individual relationships. So I say to you, be patient always, be understanding, listen, Never pre-judge, be loving and most of all show your love to them in any way that is exceptable to them. Mainly pray with them and for them, as God tells us, He'll not put more upon us than we can handle."

I am quite moved reading your thoughts. I read somewhere a while ago, that the number one cause of death for pregnant women is murder. Women have been the on the receiving end of violence since the beginning of time...
I think that part of how we can help to ease the sufferings of others, is to simply be there, to be there in spirit, in love and in compassion, as you pointed out...

[Jeanne]

LightEye said: "And most continue to see "suffering" from the vantage point of "being out of range."

LightEye,
I appreciate your enthusiastic participation on AOAND and willingness to speak your truth, however, I could not disagree with you more about the above statement. We are all born into pain and not one of us will escape suffering. It is integral to the human condition, to life on earth. We do not need to live in a declared war zone to be in war-like conditions. How many children at this moment are cowering under a bed or hiding in a closet or being tied up or beaten? Too many... How many of our elders are discarded at "rest homes", wandering and wondering why their families abandoned them, why no one cares, why they have nothing but the meds the nurses give them until they die.

And suffering is contagious... the nurses who are medicating the elders are also suffering from the effects of what they deal with daily... an unsustainable system. They see the elders dumped off and wandering aimlessly from door to door, window to window, of the prison where they've been left to die. The nurses can only apply bandages to the pain; they cannot take everyone home with them. No wonder so many of our caretakers burn out... whose filling them back up with the energy they need to continue?

Millions are suffering in "silent desperation", toiling at unfulfilling, dead end jobs, perpetually tired and hopeless. Over 12 million are homeless.

LightEye said: "Suffering is not a "blessing" in any way"

Blessing is not the word I would choose, though I agree with Lorie and think that suffering is a useful tool. For example, in hatha yoga one stretches to the point of pain, not beyond where one could be injured. Much different than the "gain is in the pain" philosophy of other physical disciplines that don't purport "union with god" as their goal. (The god idea being whatever you think it is.)

Suffering is a symptom, a signal to point us toward solution if we allow it.
How can we change an unsustainable way of living, if we are not willing to acknowledge the presence of problems that suffering is pointing toward? Metta, Jeanne

[LightEye]

Hi Jeanne,

Nice thoughts, but...

No one is born into "suffering" though we are "born" through "suffering" and any woman who has given birth can confirm this.

The question of "suffering" is always a very difficult theme to discuss as "suffering" to one isn't "suffering" to another.

I'll be the first to admit that many children find themselves in situations in which they "suffer." The question is this though...

And you have to look past the actual "suffering" one sees/feels...

Do those who "suffer" do so of "free will," in other words, do those who "suffer" do what they do so that we who may not know what suffering is will know what "suffering" is?

Re-Member what I wrote;

How can you know what something is if you don't know what something isn't.

1. There are No Accidents, No Coincidences.

2. Everything Happens just as it should.

It's that simple.

Once people Re-Member this the easier things are...

[Linda Lawson]

Linda Lawson said:

HI Thomas and Everyone,

I have enjoyed reading your insights. I am happy to summarize and share what has been passed on to me. Much of what I have to share is common understanding in metaphysical circles and now spills out into the arena of public knoweldge. Science of Mind and New Thought churches wholehearteldy embrace and teach this paradigm.

In a nutshell..

All suffering is something we have chosen, either consciously or unconsciously ,by the choices we make in each and every moment....in this life or another. In each and every moment we may judge our experiences , ourselves, others.Essentially, we determine ho wmuch suffering we live with by what we focus on most ... fear or unconditional love and beyond. It is not so much what happens to us that is important, it is how we truly respond to them that determines our next set of experiences.

By connecting with the source of love within us all ( also called God, and specific names of enlightened Masters) we are able to hold peace throughout all our sorrows and joys. Much suffering stems from attachment, refusal to change,
blame, inability to accept responsibility for one's thoughts ,feeling, and actions, basically emotional and spiritual emotional maturity.

I hope this make sense and that it helps.

truly,
Linda Lawson

[Jeanne]

Hello Linda,

I too have found much of value in new thought churches... especially of a social nature. Though, philosophically, they, like western psychology, have ripped their ideologies off from eastern mysticism, created their own terminology and called it their own. So lets just call it karma for now...

Thats where we come in... mass karma. You said, "It is not so much what happens to us that is important, it is how we truly respond to them that determines our next set of experiences." So true... We can and are creating "our next set of experiences" and we must envision and plan for a future where we are willing to change, and let go of outmoded paradigms.

True, each of us must do our personal work, but the greater challenge is what we are doing here... unifying our vision... its like herding cats. LOL... bringing our hearts and minds together enough to be effective as a community.

I like that this group was founded by those with music in their souls, because they are people who are experienced with getting people into a 'groove', harmonizing synchronously. Its more than analagous.

I guess my long winded point is that I wanted to apply the principles of personal transformation to the group level. Our mass karma is screaming at us to evolve together or perish together.

Metta,
Jeanne




Linda Lawson said:

Linda Lawson said:

HI Thomas and Everyone,

I have enjoyed reading your insights. I am happy to summarize and share what has been passed on to me. Much of what I have to share is common understanding in metaphysical circles and now spills out into the arena of public knoweldge. Science of Mind and New Thought churches wholehearteldy embrace and teach this paradigm.

In a nutshell..

All suffering is something we have chosen, either consciously or unconsciously ,by the choices we make in each and every moment....in this life or another. In each and every moment we may judge our experiences , ourselves, others.Essentially, we determine ho wmuch suffering we live with by what we focus on most ... fear or unconditional love and beyond. It is not so much what happens to us that is important, it is how we truly respond to them that determines our next set of experiences.

By connecting with the source of love within us all ( also called God, and specific names of enlightened Masters) we are able to hold peace throughout all our sorrows and joys. Much suffering stems from attachment, refusal to change,
blame, inability to accept responsibility for one's thoughts ,feeling, and actions, basically emotional and spiritual emotional maturity.

I hope this make sense and that it helps.

truly,
Linda Lawson

[Lee]

LightEye wrote:

How can you know what something is if you don't know what something isn't.

1. There are No Accidents, No Coincidences.

2. Everything Happens just as it should.

I could not agree more LightEye, although I may be peaking at this wisdom from a different angle. If the above is true perhaps suffering is not suffering at all, except to say that we need a word to describe this phenomenon. With that in mind, I do suffer, but that does not mean I am a victim of suffering. To me it means I have chosen to experience suffering as part of my existence. In asking myself why I would choose this, I come to only one answer, and that is to learn. When I am done suffering, I will be done learning. Please, keep in mind that I am defining suffering as any problem from the tiniest of inconveniences to atrocities I shall not name right now.

My most recent lessons have come through finding that within my suffering I have a bond with all of humanity. In earlier years, I never understood the extent to which people could suffer, and I am sure still don't. I have however glimpsed it, and I have much more patience for everyone, and I now feel very sure that most everyone is doing the best they can with the knowledge they have. My greatest lessons so far have come from my greatest pain. I could have exacerbated the pain with more fear, but eventually that scale tips, and the fear falls away. Then we realize everything is as it should be. When this happened for me I said to myself, "would you look at that, I brought enough of exactly what I didn't want into my life to show me that I am what I don't want". Now I get to walk toward being what I used to think I was.

LightEye also wrote:

Do those who "suffer" do so of "free will," in other words, do those who "suffer" do what they do so that we who may not know what suffering is will know what "suffering" is

I have never known anyone able to know my suffering as I do, nor have I been able to know someone else's suffering as they do. I have only had exchanges wherein our own experiences are used to assist our understanding of another's experience. If I can look upon suffering as someone who does not suffer, and then know what "suffering" is, what is my frame of reference? I realize I may be missing the point here, but that is why I ask this the way I do. If I am missing the point maybe you can see what vector I am on.

[AkashicWreckage]

Lee wrote:
"My most recent lessons have come through finding that within my suffering I have a bond with all of humanity. In earlier years, I never understood the extent to which people could suffer, and I am sure still don't. I have however glimpsed it, and I have much more patience for everyone, and I now feel very sure that most everyone is doing the best they can with the knowledge they have. My greatest lessons so far have come from my greatest pain. I could have exacerbated the pain with more fear, but eventually that scale tips, and the fear falls away. Then we realize everything is as it should be. When this happened for me I said to myself, "would you look at that, I brought enough of exactly what I didn't want into my life to show me that I am what I don't want". Now I get to walk toward being what I used to think I was."

Quite amazing way to put it, "I brought enough of exactly what I didn't want into my life to show me that I am what I don't want." Hard, at first blush, to correlate that to illness or dis-ease (and of course tragedies), and yet I'd be a liar (of the worst sort---a liar TO myself) if I did NOT see that in many ways the "pain or suffering" in dealing with dis-ease, was most certainly the manifestation of being who I don't want! And at the same time, it is the pathway back to me.

I get to points along the way, like this one reading your thoughts, when I realize that the learning hasn't ended---thank you for the reminder.

[Olivia Gaona]

Suffering is part of life, we Americans want instant fix, a pill to take away the pain, We place our confidence in Man Made Chemically Induced drugs, while I am grateful to be an american and live in the good ole USA where if i have an accident i get patched up right away, a hopital is just minutes away, I also think of those countries where it will take days for a child to get a dr to come visit him, the pain, the unknown, the suffering.
Psalm 118:8,It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man. Man keeps destroying our earth and killing us with a slow and painful suffering death, drugs do not cure, the only thing that is "cured" is a Ham.
I believe in Nature and natural alternative for healing.
When I lost my beloved sister in law to Cancer at age 50, I never thought my heart could hurt that much, I cried and still cry when I think of her, but she is my inspiration to read, research , ask questions, get my CRP test done every 6 months, get xanthones in my body, and help others to get control of their bodies and mind thru prayer, reading, and interacting with spiritual humans and learning from each other.
I believe in God, Love, Music that heals the heart, Mother Nature that gives us the plants and fruits, and people like YOU,
that make this world go round.

Oly