What about Suffering?

[Thomas]

Here is my Question and I`m longing for answers, thoughts and insights from your different perspectives & spiritual backgrounds, dear Brothers & Sisters:

What about all the suffering and pain that people must experience in this world - like accidents, illness through no fault of ones own, War, Murder, absurd tragedies?
What about the Shoah/Holocaust and all the daily victims of structural Violence?

Its easy to sing "Hallelujah", when everything is fine, to praise the goodness of Life when I'm on the "sunny Side of the Street" (most of us in USA and Western Europe) and can enjoy the Beauty of Nature, to believe in the goodness of Men when I'm not to much a Victim of the dark Side of Men ... But what to say the parents, when they lost theit child? How to deal with someone who cannot bear his physical pain any longer? What to do in the Middle of Hell-Experience??

I ask you you this as a protestant Pastor, who has to deal with it again and again.
I have my confessional Ways to deal with the Problem of THEODIZEE and I try to deal with this problem in the way, that sometimes I have no answers and believe in a God, who suffers with us (my look at the Cross), limited himself (= lots is in our Responsibility!) and works through the Spirit of Forgiveness, inner Healing and Reconciliation ...
And sometimes I think Life & Believe are a "Nevertheless" in the Way of Camus` "The Plague" ... and a Bob Dylan "Never Ending Tour" as an unsatisfied Soul is nearer to me than spiritual Bright-shining- Vibes ...

I'm very interessted in your Views (please excuse my unperfect writing as a Posting from Germany)

be blessed
Thomas

[James Murff]

"Dear James, I am not here to argue or even debate."

Why not? What's wrong with a good old fashioned, knuckles drawn debate? I cut to the marrow of the situation. I have studied the many teachings of Buddha, and his life. So I know the history, the feeling one gets, sitting in that relaxed state. I believe, though there is a time for everything in this world. And anyone who is sitting meditating when the "fit hits the shan," so to speak, will only be accepting fate as it was handed to them. What of surviving the game? What if, bare with me, we need the rebellion to move onward in evolution? What do we do if we sit by someone elses rules and let living pass us by?

[Lance Michael Foster]

There can be no day without night...there can be no peaks without valleys. The rabbit dies so that the wolf can live. The grass dies so that the rabbit can live. It is not that there is suffering...but that life IS, at all.

[Linda Lawson]

I love the perspectives we all have. Thank u so much for expressing what u know.I have more thoughts and feelings to offer... some from my own living, some was passed on to me.

I do not subscribe to any particular religious or spiritual practice or sect.I do wholeheartedly embrace the goals of all religious and spiritual groups ...to walk my talk,to be my best self, to reach my highest potential as a being of God / Source .My goal in life is to hold the resonance of unconditional love and beyond in each and every moment. Yes, I have much more practice to go to be in that space consistantly and constantly.

Like Lee, my most profound realizations have come from very painful experiences.The greatest heart expansion has occurred for me through the greatest heartache.. I began to understand that there is a gifting in what we call sufferring. And that I have a choice how to view it all.

Some suffering has come because I refused to go the direction I knew to go. In this context , suffering was having the same types of experiences happen repeatedly ..., only each time , the situation would repeat with different people , It would also be more internse.....the choice to move on harder to make.

"What if we need the rebellion to move onward in evolution? I do believe there is something to that James.for how do we choose a more evolved or resourceful path if everything is the same?. How do we even know we have a choice..?


We do have free will. We do learn by our choices, some of us faster than others, which way our hearts are directing us to go.

When we want to know that Essence which is true for all life . more than we want anything else, our souls , not our egos or personalites , move into driver's seat in our lives. And the sufferring becomes part of the dance of life. Making u who you are in this moment. Giving us the opportuntiy to expand what it means to be human., to surrender the ego again. , ..

We bemoan the arrival of pain at our door thru ,blaming, feeling victimized , and judging it..As Masters of most religions share ,we move into mastery of the emotional self when we feel the pain as we need to do so and let it go with appreciation for the journey, for the depth of soul it brought .

What if a certain amount of sufferrring of is required to attain Christ /Buddha consciousness? Would we care so much then if it visits us every now and then?

Let's see where we go from here.

[LightEye]

Probably the biggest problem with "suffering" has to do with one's "belief" in God. My wife no longer believes in God as she can't understand how God could allow such things that are happening to happen. If you believe or don't believe isn't important though. What's important is what we're told from a early age that God is Unconditional Love (which God is, but of course you can believe what you will regarding this) and then in the next moment we're told that God is going to "judge" us all for some kind of "wrong" that we've done and that God's mighty angry with us and man oh man he's (by the way, God isn't a he or she) going to "cleanse the Earth" of the the non-rightous.

Any wonder why some/many don't believe?

In the end you don't need to believe in God. Believe in yourself.

They are One in The Same.

"For through you I will know others and through others I will know you..."

Namaste

The God in Me respects the God In You.

Suffering is like pain - it's subjective and only those who suffer know what suffering (pain) is. Suffering has several levels and affects each and every one of us differently - that doesn't mean that ones "suffering" is "less" than anothers...

It's a matter of perspective...

[LightEye]

I don't know if this will help, but I Re-member that a few years before American Beauty came out something told me this. Imagine my surprise when I saw this...

[Chris Temple]

Rejoice in the memory of those you loved in life and know that they have only gotten ahead of you on the everlasting journey for awhile, keep them in your memories and they are not lost. The pain of separation serves primarily to remind us of the pleasure of unity.

Many of the hardships we experience are clearly related to the unreal monetary system we live in, war, crime, and murder are symptoms of the system, not examples of normal human behavior. We don't see or cannot accept that we are so completely (falsely) concerned with surviving in a system that is designed to create failure. Pain is naturally part of life, without it we could not know pleasure, but today it is the norm to experience one or the other rather than experiencing something between, being centered (as the norm). Ha! Imagine what would happen to the economy if we all spent more time seeking that center rather than pursuing pleasure and pain!

Specific cases of injustice - those creating more victims daily - are not natural and generally serve a few individuals who are so removed from humanity that their concerns should automatically be recognized as false, they are the aggressors using the youth of the world as their strong arm, their devices must be allowed to fail via refusal to participate or those devices will continue to divide us, furthering the plans of their architects and turning the unwittingly oppressed (us) against each other.

[James Murff]

This goes back to what I was saying in another post on AOND. Why do we still live by the prophet's words of our pasts? Why keep manifesting their ideas of our destiny as a human race, as a species???? I am just wondering, what is the point of living out their ways? NOt just the ways of the Political leaders, but the spiritual ones as well?

[Lance Michael Foster]

Good point. An alternative scenario based on finding truth in the natural environment of one's own region can be see at: http://www.bioregionalanimism.com/

James Murff said:

This goes back to what I was saying in another post on AOND. Why do we still live by the prophet's words of our pasts? Why keep manifesting their ideas of our destiny as a human race, as a species???? I am just wondering, what is the point of living out their ways? NOt just the ways of the Political leaders, but the spiritual ones as well?

[Lance Michael Foster]

Actually war and murder are part of human nature unfortunately...even our closest primate relatives the chimpanzees exhibit this behavior in their wars on other chimpanzee bands, including murder and even cannibalization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM

But that doesn't mean we can't try and do better. We have to try.

Chris Temple said:

Rejoice in the memory of those you loved in life and know that they have only gotten ahead of you on the everlasting journey for awhile, keep them in your memories and they are not lost. The pain of separation serves primarily to remind us of the pleasure of unity.

Many of the hardships we experience are clearly related to the unreal monetary system we live in, war, crime, and murder are symptoms of the system, not examples of normal human behavior. We don't see or cannot accept that we are so completely (falsely) concerned with surviving in a system that is designed to create failure. Pain is naturally part of life, without it we could not know pleasure, but today it is the norm to experience one or the other rather than experiencing something between, being centered (as the norm). Ha! Imagine what would happen to the economy if we all spent more time seeking that center rather than pursuing pleasure and pain!

Specific cases of injustice - those creating more victims daily - are not natural and generally serve a few individuals who are so removed from humanity that their concerns should automatically be recognized as false, they are the aggressors using the youth of the world as their strong arm, their devices must be allowed to fail via refusal to participate or those devices will continue to divide us, furthering the plans of their architects and turning the unwittingly oppressed (us) against each other.

[Jeanne]

The main difference between tribal and modern warfare is that tribal warriors were not "professional soldiers". Tribal warriors fulfilled many roles within a tribe, including defense. The advent of agriculture and storehouses to hold the excess crops, required the hiring of soldiers to protect the storehouses and from that evolved armies and professional soldiers.

True, defense of home and territory is common to many animals, humans included, but we are the only ones to dedicate select individuals to that one specialization of being killers. Its unsustainable when diversity is lost.

Lance Michael Foster said:

Actually war and murder are part of human nature unfortunately...even our closest primate relatives the chimpanzees exhibit this behavior in their wars on other chimpanzee bands, including murder and even cannibalization:

[James Murff]

"Good point. An alternative scenario based on finding truth in the natural environment of one's own region can be see at: http://www.bioregionalanimism.com/"

What is with that page? Why is it that everyone here assumes that because you think differently, that you automatically are into the strange ass hippy stuff they are into? I am not talking about some walk with nature, brother. I am talking about thinking outside of the left wing and the right wing ideals. Liberalism has become its own dogmatic, fascist religion as well. I just don't get with that mode of thinking.

[Lance Michael Foster]

James Murff said:

"Good point. An alternative scenario based on finding truth in the natural environment of one's own region can be see at: http://www.bioregionalanimism.com/"

What is with that page? Why is it that everyone here assumes that because you think differently, that you automatically are into the strange ass hippy stuff they are into? I am not talking about some walk with nature, brother. I am talking about thinking outside of the left wing and the right wing ideals. Liberalism has become its own dogmatic, fascist religion as well. I just don't get with that mode of thinking.

I take it you didn't like that site. To each their own. Actually bioregional animism has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism. Lots of bioregional animists up in this area are gun-toting, meat-eating survivalists, not liberal hippies, or strange ass hippy stuff" as you put it. I myself was brought up with guns and hunting, eating meat I kill. Too bad you don't think you walk with nature, because you can't get away from it. You are part of nature, so it's good to accept it.

I think left wing and right wing, when taken to their extremes, are both as intolerant as they accuse the other of being. However, in their classic definitions (not the ridiculous ideological extremist forms each has taken since the time of Nixon to the present) conservatism and liberalism each have valuable parts of the story and are not necessarily antagonistic.