What about Suffering?

[Thomas]

Here is my Question and I`m longing for answers, thoughts and insights from your different perspectives & spiritual backgrounds, dear Brothers & Sisters:

What about all the suffering and pain that people must experience in this world - like accidents, illness through no fault of ones own, War, Murder, absurd tragedies?
What about the Shoah/Holocaust and all the daily victims of structural Violence?

Its easy to sing "Hallelujah", when everything is fine, to praise the goodness of Life when I'm on the "sunny Side of the Street" (most of us in USA and Western Europe) and can enjoy the Beauty of Nature, to believe in the goodness of Men when I'm not to much a Victim of the dark Side of Men ... But what to say the parents, when they lost theit child? How to deal with someone who cannot bear his physical pain any longer? What to do in the Middle of Hell-Experience??

I ask you you this as a protestant Pastor, who has to deal with it again and again.
I have my confessional Ways to deal with the Problem of THEODIZEE and I try to deal with this problem in the way, that sometimes I have no answers and believe in a God, who suffers with us (my look at the Cross), limited himself (= lots is in our Responsibility!) and works through the Spirit of Forgiveness, inner Healing and Reconciliation ...
And sometimes I think Life & Believe are a "Nevertheless" in the Way of Camus` "The Plague" ... and a Bob Dylan "Never Ending Tour" as an unsatisfied Soul is nearer to me than spiritual Bright-shining- Vibes ...

I'm very interessted in your Views (please excuse my unperfect writing as a Posting from Germany)

be blessed
Thomas

[Jeanne]

AkashicWreckage said: "I just KNEW that people were praying for me right at that VERY moment! I could feel it. And, I was lightened, and my thoughts turned"

Hello, love that name, Akashic Wreckage, and I loved what you said about feeling the prayer. That is so powerful. I believe that our path is what is in front of us - the experiences and people put before us. Your experience at that moment made a difference in your life then - and now, because you shared that beautiful story, its making a difference in the lives of others. Little did the pray-ers know how far their pure intentions and love would ripple. I am deeply touched and affirmed about prayer.

I'm more of a meditator than a pray-er, but I know that both are important and powerful on a subtle level. And I know, not that I can prove it, that the ripple effects that originate at the subtlest level, at the atomic level, is far more powerful than our most overt actions. I know this because of the manifestations in my life since I've been practicing vipassana meditation. Issues I had wrestled with for years, fell away and other issues, so deeply buried that I had forgotten and/or never understood, rose up and fell away. And opportunities that I would not have imagined possible, came to me.

"Does throwing love across the thousands of miles or even down the block, or sending healing thoughts, or prayers, really have an impact on their suffering--does it shift it, does it ease it, does it matter?"

I think that with the increasing unity and global consciousness, the combined positively directed energy of our love and pure intention will be the means to overcome the damage that has been done. Similar to my experience on a personal level, I believe that we can transform our planet into a new Eden.

Metta,
Jeanne

[James Murff]

Quantum Mechanics, Chaos Theory. You can never see the light if you haven't experienced the darkness. If one lives their life in the light all the time, and experiences something twisted, it usually jades them. It's hard for me to be open to a lot of the conversations on here sometimes, because everyone is fairy spiffits, and positive energy. I am the negative. I can't help it. It's not that I don't trust what you are saying, I just am my own wolf in the world. My wife is my solace, and my child. I eat the preverbial cracker, have a lttle lovey dovey time, play some guitar, and go to sleep. Last night we bought a dancing game, for the PS2. We all played as a family. My Zen Tarot has been telling me lately that I need to calm my self and go with the flow. It's hard for me to do that now. I have awakened and the fury I feel is like a fire that doesn't want to go out until we see the day for true freedom, when we can all sleep peaceful without worrying whether some government is going to look over at what we are doing.

[Lee]

Learning is the avoidance of suffering, and we have much learning to do.

On a personal level one can easily understand that if I touch flame it is hot, therefore I will not touch the flame. Some things take a little more time and are less obvious. For instance it may appear to cause less suffeing to sit on a couch than to exercise to the point that there may be some slight pain. Over time however one figures out which choice truly causes less suffering. In a lifetime suffering will visit a given individual in many ways, places, and in varying levels. The desire to avoid this suffering is the only true incentive I have experienced for learning. Even higher education is driven by the desire to fulfill a need within ourselves that would cause us to suffer if we were to not fill it. Some lessons are visited many times in many ways before we find the real path to avoiding a particular version of suffering, and so it is with society as a whole.

If I view society, from inception through today, as a single organism, it parallels the life of an average individual fairly well. (That individual in my model is likely thirteen or fourteen.) The suffering of society moves around, albeit slowly compared to a lifetime, and varies in degree as it moves. Any one individual, or group of people suffering within this larger organism can appear very unfair, especially the suffering of a baby, or victims of war, or any number of atrocities we could name. However from a single organism view these individuals could be seen as cells being attacked by a disease caused by the immaturity of society at large. These "cells" are shining beacons to those of us that are in a place and time where we have the luxury to consider such things, and communicate on a moment's notice, about what is wrong in a given situation. These personal tragedies ripple throughout the organism of society and many of us pick up on it, consider it, communicate about it, and eventually will solve the underlying causes. These solutions will not come tomorrow, but we work toward them none-the-less. We work toward them because we too have suffered, and we have learned, and we have this in common. This common ground is where I have found a well spring of love.

[AkashicWreckage]

Jeanne wrote: "Hello, love that name, Akashic Wreckage, and I loved what you said about feeling the prayer. That is so powerful. I believe that our path is what is in front of us - the experiences and people put before us. Your experience at that moment made a difference in your life then - and now, because you shared that beautiful story, its making a difference in the lives of others. Little did the pray-ers know how far their pure intentions and love would ripple. I am deeply touched and affirmed about prayer."
*********

Hi Jeanne, the idea for using the words Akashic Wreckage in some way came to me a couple of months ago as I was journaling---no clue where it came from! :)
I too believe that our paths are in front of us, or right there in our faces. There's also the factor of our awareness---when I felt the prayers, I had no idea who was praying for me, my family and friends had sent my name to a variety of prayer groups, other friends, etc. It was as if some thing, or energy, had entered into my awareness, like a bit of a breeze moving the air around me. The shift was immediate. And I was totally ignorant about energy back then...I was aware that there was something important for me to learn through this process---I wasn't even sure I really wanted to deal with it, though. I just wanted to get through it to the other side. I desired a short cut route, those prayers provided the fuel.

You also stated: "I'm more of a meditator than a pray-er, but I know that both are important and powerful on a subtle level. And I know, not that I can prove it, that the ripple effects that originate at the subtlest level, at the atomic level, is far more powerful than our most overt actions."

I know this as well. So, when I see, or hear of the unimaginable grief, suffering or pain that others endure, or are in the process of enduring, while I wonder if the energy of our thoughts can really have an impact to uplift others---I am brought back to the love and energy of others, who contributed to my experience. And, I pray that a gentle breeze will soothe their suffering...

[Jeanne]

"It was as if some thing, or energy, had entered into my awareness, like a bit of a breeze moving the air around me. The shift was immediate."
I got chills when I read this... powerful stuff. Thank-you AW. And thanks to Thomas for starting this discussion, thus providing the opportunity to read Akashic Wreckage's beautiful statement.

I'm wondering, AW, if now after the cancer and recovery, are you grateful for your cancer?
After my grandson's diabetes diagnosis, I searched everywhere for a healing. I called The Institute of Optimal Health and the nurse I spoke to asked what my grandson's opportunity was. I was initially taken aback... but now I understand, especially when I hear about people like you who have turned their disease into a quantum leap toward personal growth.

[AkashicWreckage]

Jeanne said:

"It was as if some thing, or energy, had entered into my awareness, like a bit of a breeze moving the air around me. The shift was immediate."
I got chills when I read this... powerful stuff. Thank-you AW. And thanks to Thomas for starting this discussion, thus providing the opportunity to read Akashic Wreckage's beautiful statement.

I'm wondering, AW, if now after the cancer and recovery, are you grateful for your cancer?
After my grandson's diabetes diagnosis, I searched everywhere for a healing. I called The Institute of Optimal Health and the nurse I spoke to asked what my grandson's opportunity was. I was initially taken aback... but now I understand, especially when I hear about people like you who have turned their disease into a quantum leap toward personal growth.

Thank you Jeanne for your words, which I am honored to read!

To answer your question, even at the time of diagnosis I knew that there was some vein of gold for me to strike. I hated it all, the feelings, the victim-ness of it, the blow to what and who I thought I was---and I tucked it all somewhere else. There was no end that I could focus on, it was all a series of moments inside of moments. I once asked the Universe why, without really thinking about it, and immediately it was if someone were screaming at me, "Who else would YOU choose for this?" Yikes!

So, at that point, I realized that this just had to be important and that if I didn't get it, the point was pointless.

I was grateful, on a level, then, during the courses of treatment--- although not really wanting to even look at that gratitude because it would mean completely stripping everything away, and figuring out where that gratitude was coming from! I think the experiences needed to be experienced and the waves of understanding just had to keep coming, slowly because I was an unwilling student. I am still learning and still uncovering the gifts each and every day!

Even if I could go back in time, given a chance to change that experience, I wouldn't change it, I would not choose to skip it. I finally unmasked myself for myself and while I still scare myself, I'm okay with who was birthed from the "cancer."

And to your grandson, and the nurse---do we face obstacles, or opportunities? I prefer opportunities! :)

[Thomas]

Again, I want to thank you all for your replies, expierences, thoughts & inputs here.

As the Initiator of this thread I'm not able to comment or answer all that you wrote - but I meditate and contemplate about it all and appreciate your contributions.

What I learn is, that Suffering is robbing us a lot of (Ego-) - Illusions about life and that also God-Believers must ask themselves how "selfish" their God-Relation can (!) be when the One above has to serve & fullfill our (Ego-) Expectations :-)))

Thank you all *out there* & near to me
Thomas

[James Murff]

"As we know, Buddha taught that suffering is caused by craving – either craving for what we don’t have, or craving (aversion) to be rid of something we don’t want. As long as our attention remains focused on personal preferences and prejudices, we have tendency to think things should be otherwise than what they are – and therefore we suffer."

I think that your words are a farce. What of evolution? Do you think sitting and meditating is going to make anyone move forward in the process? Wanting nothing is not feasible. Unless you have nothing or everything, you are going to want objects. Now granted they are not what makes you who you are. When you get a pang in your belly, is that not a craving for something to eat? If you are married, or have a life partner, do you not desire to be with them? That is a craving. When you want to listen to jazz, or watch your favorite film, is that not craving? I think people misconstrue words of past prophets to eleveate themselves in today's society. You have just recieved the adoration of fellow people on this web page. Accolades saying, "Awww, isn't that nice." Did you not get a feeling of accomplishment with your wise cut and paste? That is craving.

[LightEye]

The 1st "question" is this...

How do we know that they who "suffer" regardless of the reasons are not "showing" us who do not "suffer" that which "suffering" is?

For if you do not know what "suffering" is you how will you ever know what "suffering" isn't...?

The 2nd "question" is this...

Have those who wish to show us their "suffering" regardless of reason done this so that we who do not "know" what "suffering" is will realise and understand in some way what it is?

The 3rd "question" is simple...

Do we understand what is being said regardless of the medium?

And the 4th question...

"Do We Care?"

Simple questions - Hard answers...

Be Well My Friends.

[LightEye]

LightEye said:

The 1st "question" is this...

How do we know that they who "suffer" regardless of the reasons are not "showing" us who do not "suffer" that which "suffering" is?

For if you do not know what "suffering" is you how will you ever know what "suffering" isn't...?

The 2nd "question" is this...

Have those who wish to show us their "suffering" regardless of reason done this so that we who do not "know" what "suffering" is will realise and understand in some how it affects us?

The 3rd "question" is simple...

Do we understand what is being said regardless of the medium?

And the 4th question...

"Do We Care?"

Simple questions - Hard answers...

Be Well My Friends.

[LightEye]

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

The 1st "question" is this...

How do we know that they who "suffer" regardless of the reasons are not "showing" us who do not "suffer" that which "suffering" is?

For if you do not know what "suffering" is how will you ever know what "suffering" isn't...?

The 2nd "question" is this...

Have those who wish to show us their "suffering" regardless of reason done this so that we who do not "know" what "suffering" is will realise and understand in some how it affects us?

The 3rd "question" is simple...

Do we understand what is being said regardless of the medium?

And the 4th question...

"Do We Care?"

Simple questions - Hard answers...

Be Well My Friends.

[LightEye]

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

LightEye said:

The 1st "question" is this...

How do we know that they who "suffer" regardless of the reasons are not "showing" us who do not "suffer" that which "suffering" is?

For if you do not know what "suffering" is how will you ever know what "suffering" isn't...?

The 2nd "question" is this...

Have those who wish to show us their "suffering" regardless of reason done this so that we who do not "know" what "suffering" is will realise and understand in some how it affects us?

The 3rd "question" is simple...

Do we understand what is being said regardless of the medium?

And the 4th question...

"Do We Care?"

Simple questions - Hard answers...

Be Well My Friends.